Below are two provocative videos and I do not endorse the view expressed in either one. I would like you to view them before you read my comments below and I hope that you will comment as well.
The Day They Kicked God Out Of The Schools
The Day They Kicked God Out Of The Schools – Rebuttal
Here is one more view; this one by George Barna. Please read this article (HT: James @ Think Christian). I know that I am asking you to do several things, but I think the way we grapple with this and whatever conclusions we present is indeed, very important.
My Thoughts on The Day They Day They Kicked God Out Of The Schools:
- It is insensitive to the people of a grieving nation and horribly insensitive to the families and friends of the victims of all of the school shootings.
- It uses a simplistic, but flawed logic that at first blush seems truthful, causing it to be very manipulative.
- It uses horrible theology. According to the video, God’s presence and power to manifest Himself is limited to the public endorsement of Christianity, i.e., state sponsored prayer and Bible reading in schools. That makes for a God who is not omnipotent and one who works through Christendom, not the hearts of people. My Bible gives me tons of examples of how people have courageously followed God in cultures that make ours look godly by comparison. As a matter of fact, that is every example that I can think of. Also, Jesus was very critical of the religious leaders in His own culture, which was a theocracy.
- It makes God a vengeful God who uses a deranged person to deal his justice. If we negated all of the negative societal influences listed in the next point, this shooting may have still occurred because the people who do these kinds of things are anomalies and are not normal people.
- It points to God that judges sin with an earthly, personal and cultural punishment (which he has done in the past and can do, but often does not do so,) rather than a God of grace and a Jesus who took our punishment upon Himself.
- It gives us the usual parade of bad guys: Madeline Murray O’Hare, Benjamin Spock, school administrators, abortionists, Planned Parenthood, child porn purveyors, Hollywood, Bill Clinton, and the ubiquitous “they.” These folks may not make “The Moral and Ethical Champions Sweetheart List,” but they are not the problem. We are the problem. The video sort of made this point after bashing the usual suspects.
- It is yet another graceless, mean-spirited idiotic message to send to the public at large who already thinks Christians are judgmental hypocrites, laughable, and even dangerous. What kind of testimony is this? Would you what to become a follower of Christ after watching this?
Thoughts on the Rebuttal Video:
- It was a diatribe against religion, but strangely had several nuggets of truth.
- It bore out the suspicious and fearful attitude that so many people have toward Christians.
- It recognized much of the bad theology.
- It rightly placed responsibly on each person.
Why was an atheist more inspiring than the “Christian voice?”
Thoughts on Barna’s article:
His basic premise is that most children are exposed, if not bombarded by several kinds of negative messages that likely have a negative effect. Therefore, parents have the responsibility to limit these negative influences and to teach their children the truth of noble virtues. Hard to deny, yet sometimes kids turn from their the teaching of their upbringing.
My Conclusions
- There is some truth in the message of each of the videos and the Barna article. We are responsible for ourselves.
- Parents are responsible for their children.
- Here is one more that I would like to suggest. We are responsible for the negative images people have developed of Christians and we are responsible for our public messages and testimony. We should know how to answer those who have questions about things like this tragedy (and who doesn’t) and those words should be full of grace and wisdom.
“Let your conversation be gracious and effective so that you will have the right answer for everyone.” Colossians 3:4 (NLT)
I think the first video has been around in word, not video content, for some time. But it’s certainly consistent with the warped view many Christians–particularly in the US–think of God. It’s manipulative and greatly misrepresents God’s character. I’m fed up with it.
The atheist video is also predictable. Though the atheist gets the problems raised by the Christian video fairly well.
With Barna, yes, parents are responsible for their kids. But I find this falling partially into some of the traps of the first video. It puts too much blame on parents in my opinion, when there should be more of a balance there. I’m thinking of lots of parents I’ve met who have been great parents, yet their kids have fallen away here or there.
By: John Smulo on April 24, 2007
at 1:32 am
John… I couldn’t agree more. Maybe, I should expand this discussion to include thoughts about how should we respond. What are some key points of a Jesus-like response to the students at VT?
By: Glenn on April 24, 2007
at 11:26 am
Check out the April 15th Podcast from Mars Hill by Rob Bell, it goes hand in hand with this post and raises some very intriguing ideas.
As far as a Jesus like response to the students at V.T.? Weep with them, tell them it sucks and it doesnt make sense and there is no right answer as to why. We dont know.
Dave from 38A shares the Live God Loud testimony much in the same way about one of his best friends dying at an early age unexpected. It doesnt make sense and sometimes there is no answer to give. You just shrug your shoulders and raise your hands and say I dont get it.
It is ok to do this…Jesus wept, so can we.
By: Jason on April 25, 2007
at 12:11 pm
Glenn,
While I don’t agree with the total message of the first video, I don’t fully agree with the athiest rebuttal either. I think they’re dually wrong in many regards.
Here’s what I believe and neither video has led me to this belief. America has abandoned the principles upon which this great nation was founded and in large part we have turned our back on God and called it freedom of speech, the right to choose, seperation of church and state, political correctness, yadda yadda yadda.
Historically when God’s people turned their backs on God, God’s judgement or at least the allowance of destruction or captivity was to be experienced. Converesly, when God’s people repented and sought after God with true hearts they found peace and rest in Him. I think one would have to be blind and ignorant of historical facts and present conditions to think God is pleased with the direction this nation is heading. I’m not advocating God is sitting on His eternal throne commissioning deranged lunatics to conduct and mete out punishement but I do believe in the immutable law of sowing and reaping. You reap what you sow. Always. As an individual, family, nation world or otherwise the law of sowing and reaping knows no predjudice. America is not the nation it was founded to be. I dare anyone to deny that with factual evidence.
I think the AFA video does nothing for the betterment of Christianity or the cause of Christ but I do believe some of it’s content are indesputable as evidence that we have moved away from God as a nation.
By: Shannon on April 25, 2007
at 9:22 pm
Jason…
Thanks for giving us an example of how to respond to tragedy. It more about love and just being there rather than coming with some trite verbal response.
By: Glenn on April 25, 2007
at 9:34 pm
Hey Shannon…
I am not so sure that America was founded upon Christian principles. It seems to me that people wanted a nation where there was freedom for religion to be expressed, rather than having state sponsored churches like they had in Europe.
I think much of what is often called tuning our backs on the principles upon which the nation was founded is simply a change of the mores of our culture. The founders were reflecting a commonly held view of the day about God and godly principles. Their boldness was in their departure from governmental and ecclesiastical tyranny. Granted the changes that have taken place have been mostly a nasty tumble downward.
I can think of a lot of immoral and cruel cultures and empires that had a long run. It is obvious, that in his mercy and virtues that are way beyond us that God does not always choose to whack us (individually or as a people) when we mess up.
You mentioned God judging his people when they turn their backs on him. Wouldn’t that mean that he would be judging the church (His people), not the (ungodly) nation. America, certainly does not equal the people of God. Where does judgment begin?
I am thinking that we should be more concerned about us (people who claim to follow Christ) than about people who are behaving as one can expect. I think the bigger concern is not what God thinks about our nation (politicians, entertainment industry, and all the purveyors of immorality,) but what he thinks of his church in America. By the way, how much different are the lifestyles of church-going American.
Also, I think both of us are finding that God is very much at work in some unlikely places and in the hearts of “unlikely” people.
Seems to me that Jesus way is for not to point accusing fingers toward awful sinners, but to examine our own hearts. Our calling…not to curse the darkness, but to be the light.
Shannon, here you are back in the arena.
By: Glenn on April 25, 2007
at 10:05 pm
Glenn,
It’s a worthy arena.
I believe there is a vast amount of evidence that points to America being founded upon “Godly principles” not “Christian principles” as you suggested. Christian values often look quite different than God’s.
You said, “Granted the changes that have taken place have been mostly a nasty tumble downward.” Is this to be considered reaping what we have sown? I think so.
Would the things taking place in America today and over the last several decades have been acceptable in the formative and beyond years of this nation as they are today? I can’t see how. There was a clear reverence for God and His authority that is at best rare in America today.
Judgment starts at the house of God I know….but he still destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah for their perversion and sin. Again, we reap what we so and it applies to all…God’s people or not. Whether America is “God’s” nation or not, disregard for God’s law will always result in less than desirable results; now, later or both now and later.
What is the answer to the problems we face as a nation anyway? Is it the Lord or not? Is Jesus and his message still the answer to man’s sin problem? Is a nation fallen away from God able to repent and be reconciled to God? What is the answer and where is it concealed?
God made a deal with Abraham that if he could find 50, 45, 40, 30, 20 no wait….just 10….if he could find 10 righteous he would spare Sodom and Gomorrah from destruction. None were to be found and destruction was sure and swift.
We deceive ourselves if we think God will be any less than righteous in his dealings with the American nation that has abandoned His principles and are involved in much of what He destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah for. But for the grace and of God we are extended His mercies. But, for how long? Obedience to God’s laws and precepts are the only things that will guarantee God’s favor on any nation. Not abandonment of them. God is still the answer for America.
Blessed is the nation whose God is the LORD
Quote: “By the way, how much different are the lifestyles of church-going American.”
Response: How much different are the lifestyles of church-going Americans or even those non-church going Christians? Why does it have to be about “Church” going Christians? I happen to be one of “those” people. I have a feeling your question could be greatly broadened by including missional/emergent Christians as well
To be honest, I see much more work being done to glorify God and bring healing and hope to humanity by “church” going Christians than the others that you didn’t mention. 
I know a great deal of talking is happening in that camp but when is it going to be time to put up or shut up? I mean, really.
By: Shannon on April 25, 2007
at 10:45 pm
“In The Arena With Shannon”
Thanks for calling it a worthy arena!
I wasn’t trying to make a distinction between Godly and Christian values. I just think the morality of our founders was the common morality of the day. Of course they were flawed too, some with slaves and mistresses.
You are right that so many of the things taking place today would have been topics of disgust in years gone by. Yet, we don’t have slaves and women are not oppressed. We don’t burn witches (in the name of God.) Those were the cultural sins of the day, like homosexuality, abortion, being sex and violence obsessed, excessive consumerism, hyper-individualism, and largely disregarding the poor of the world are some of the sins of our today.
Honestly, I find the reaping and sowing thing hard to argue with. We bring a lot of stuff on ourselves.
Does God deal with us primarily as a nation or individuals? It seems like you are trying to nationalize following God or turning from Him. Knowing what happens with mankind and political power, I wouldn’t count on nation being godly. Has a nation ever been “Godly” … for very long. You know that God is a calling out a people from all nations for his name (the church.) It is we who are His Holy Nation!
You misunderstood my “church-going” reference. It was not a slam to those who are a part of an established local body of any kind. The point is that study after study says that those who are church-going are not much different in their values and lifestyle than those who do not attend. That is sad and says that, in general, whatever we are doing isn’t working very well.
I wasn’t trying to drive a wedge between church-going and non church-going Christians, That would be wrong and foolish. I think there is too much noble talking and too little noble action in both camps and enough guilt to go around. We are on the same team.
Let’s try a positive turn. How would you respond to those grieving over this tragedy?
By: Glenn on April 25, 2007
at 11:33 pm
How would I respond to those grieving over this tragedy?
I would respond as I did with 9-11, Littleton, Co, Katrina and other tragedies. You cry with them and don’t pretend to have an answer for something that cannot be humanly understood. In things like this, too much thinking disrupts the necessary grieving.
Ecclesiastes 3:4 “A time to weep…”
By: Shannon on April 26, 2007
at 12:12 am
Shannon… Good response!
By: Glenn on April 26, 2007
at 12:45 am