There has been a pretty good discussion stimulated by the post, Does Church Life Equip You For Real Life? It spilled over to Lyn’s blog, Paul’s, Jonathan’s, and Jim’s.
I don’t want to beat a dead horse, but I have a question or so still running through my mind.
- What is your gut level, deadly honest response to your church experience?
- What impressions do you take away from it?
- How has it affected you?
It might be positive or negative or a mixture.
I am not looking for anything other than stark honesty.
Glenn, the answer is yes…but. Most of the intentional discipleship at my church was created by us. The pastor started the process but we created it over the last five years. And this discipleship experience has been awesome. Most people who are engaged consistently ask why they need to go on Sunday.
By: jonathanbrink on January 22, 2008
at 12:59 pm
Glenn:
I would have to say:
* What is your gut level, deadly honest response to your church experience?
Mostly it’s pretty boring and seems to have little to do with my “real life” and the problems therein. And I wouldn’t bring those problems to the church because (a) they’re not any of the other peoples’ business (which shows we, or at least I, are not truly a community like I would think of a family or a circle of close friends), and (b) because I don’t want to be judged, and (c) because the church isn’t equipped to deal with them.
* What impressions do you take away from it?
While God has much to do with my life, church has very little to do with it.
* How has it affected you?
In the end it has made me someone who goes to church because God has said He wants us in fellowship and who am I to argue, but at the same time I am not very personally invested in church nor the church process. And that’s a sad statement, since I am not just the webmaster any more but also a board chair. I do those things out of obligation and duty, not because I have any real desire (actually, the latter I do because I was asked to run and was too stupid to say, “No”).
I think this is a hard topic and I might blog on a tangent of it myself, which is this – in any other relationship in life we either start at birth (family) or we accrue one or a few people at a time (friends), and over time we build up a strong relationship (we hope) with those people and it becomes “family and friends”. Now, if you are born, raised, live and die all in one church, perhaps your experience is also like that. But for those of us that come into a church later in life, it is very hard (VERY HARD) to feel any sort of relationship in a medium-to-large church even after years, because there’s just too many permutations. I am working on trying to build relationships one person at a time and maybe over decades one ends up with a relationship with “the church” but it is very hard and in the mean time it just makes me feel like an outsider (a theme in my life).
By: Jim on January 22, 2008
at 1:12 pm
[...] a lot of passion around the idea of church right now on what good did it do. Jason, Glenn and Paul all have great dialogs about this question. It’s a good question, one that should be [...]
By: Thank You For Not Giving Up On Me « Missio Dei on January 22, 2008
at 2:53 pm
First off I want everyone who reads this to know I DON’T think every institutional church (IC) has ALL of these characteristics in total…although the majority of IC’s do have them in total or in part. I’m not looking for an argument here, you may disagree with some or all of these ‘problems’…the purpose of my making this list is food for thought for those still involved in an IC. I rode around in vehicle of the IC for most of my life and didn’t see any of these problems until I stopped the car, got out and looked at it from the outside. What I thought was a Ferrari turned out to be an old clunker barely running with a cracked windshield, dirty glass, square tires, rusted body panels and all the while spewing volumes of black acidic spiritual pollution.
When asked the question “Does the IC do more harm than good?” I would answer: “YES”…sorry…you may have a different answer.
1.IC’s by the nature of their buildings and vernacular say to the community and their members” both verbally and non-verbally; church is a place, a location, a building.
2. IC’s by nature of their programs and scheduling say “church” and/or experiencing God only happens at their services/gatherings, whatever day(s) they hold them.
3. IC’s by their format, programming and tradition separate children from their parents to communicate the most foundational truths of life (i.e. Sunday school, youth, training union, big church/kids church). The vast majority parents (who are honest) rely on the IC’s teachers and spend very little time, if any, teaching their kids about their personal relationship with Jesus and understanding of God. So kids are taught, by the nature of the program/format, that “other people”, who know more than mom & dad, will teach me about God.
4. IC’s separate the giver (tithing or otherwise) from the actual recipient of the gift by teaching old covenant giving (i.e. bring the tithe to the storehouse which they define as the church). This process says to the receiver that the church (i.e. the IC) is the “giver” and to the giver it says, “we know what better to do with your tithe/gift than you do”…. they may not say this out loud but it’s the message the process sends. The method also complicates the process of getting the gift to the person in need, committee meetings, phone calls and such. Finally, the giver and receiver don’t get to communicate the reason they give or the thanks for the gift or interact at all…both of which God uses to “do” something within them…. i.e. the giver “sees” the need and the receiver “see” God. Imagine the impact of a body of believers dividing up their annual budget between them and giving to whom God directed when God directed? Think of all the lives affected, relationships started and how each individual believers radar for the needy turned on if each person had something to give and the green light to give it.
5. IC’s, because of the building, paid staff and programs, only give 10% (I’m being conservative here probably more like 2%) of their budget, in ministry, to their community & the lost. The community looks at all the “extravaganza” (i.e. buildings, programs, trips, dinners, etc), without the ministry (i.e. meeting their needs), and views the church as a Christian country club…the member’s do too.
6. IC’s establish a hierarchy within the church. Paid staff knows the answers and the average believer receives truth and takes orders from them. This communicates, to the average believer, they’re unable to make “spiritual” decisions on their own or be led to truth by any means other than a pastor or teacher. The staff may ‘preach’ the holy spirit is our teacher but their programs, preaching and actions drown it out. We do all have the same Christ living within us; “He” is the head. It also is a “pride” danger for the staff, as most average believers come to “them” for answers and the staff feels they must have an answer.
7. IC’s focus on growing larger, by far out ways their focus on the need for individual believers to grow in depth. Think about pastors going to conventions and saying, “my congregation is only 50 folks but they have incredible relationships with and understanding of God”…. yeah right. Who said bigger is better? Isn’t God capable of growing up a vast number of godly leaders to lead smaller groups?
8. IC’s by their size, even with small groups, prevent deep relationship from forming within the body of Christ. Too many programs, events, meetings tie up “members” discretionary time. Programs and the many areas of service “jobs” orient member’s discretionary time to service where they receive kudos, rather than building relationships, which develop community and foster iron sharpening iron.
9. The casual nature of IC relationships and the standard of behavior that is rewarded and approved, limits open sharing of life’s troubles and trials to empty phrases “How are you doing? Great…and you?” Sharing real needs, trials and struggles receive punishment and the boot. What of the ministry of reconciliation?
10. IC’s teach by the nature of the services and vernacular that worship happens on Sunday morning in the “worship center” and while sitting and standing singing praise songs with our hands up or stoically with our hands folded. What of Rom 12 that defines worship as presenting our bodies as living sacrifices?
11. IC’s through their “prayer meetings and list” teach prayer as a mechanism to prod God into action on that which ‘we’ deem important. The system teaches God as a vending machine; a couple of quarters of prayer get a package of lifesavers. They teach the number of people praying has more effect in motivating God into action (i.e. more quarters, more lifesavers) Who is the initiator, God or man?
12. IC’s substitute good marketing for the work of the Holy Spirit. Their drive for numbers and success in the business model sense has staff looking toward worldly mechanisms (promotion, marketing, door to door, events, services, etc) to advance those goals rather than relying on the Spirit.
13. (Lucky number eh?) IC’s promote believers to identify themselves by what they “do” at church and assign value, higher and lower, to their areas of service. A praise singer is awesome while a stagehand is trivial. People who dress nicer, attend more services & activities, pray out loud in front of others, give the more money, quote more scripture, sings or teaches, has some position on a committee, holds more “jobs”, wins more people to Christ, has a daily “quite time”, has well behaved children, has no bad habits, is more spiritual and thus of greater value than the one with less of the above. Funny how Christ modeled an attitude of valuing both the disciples, drunkards, tax collectors and harlots equally. They may say that “all” service is equally important but they treat people in different positions with high/lower values in mind. Their actions/attitudes are deafening. Shouldn’t our identity be solely ‘a child of God’?
For me ‘church’ is Life. I know that sounds extremely weird for some, but I’ve never been more spiritually connected with people (family, neighbors, co-workers, friends, acquaintances than I am now…and those connections have come about in the course of everyday life.
By: Rick on January 22, 2008
at 4:21 pm
Wow Rick. How do you really feel?
By: jonathanbrink on January 22, 2008
at 4:29 pm
Glenn,
my gut level response to my church experience is this. I’m tired of going to church and pretending i have it all together, and shaking hands with a bunch of shiny happy people who are also pretending they have it all together (and I shared that with my pastor a couple of weeks ago.) I have been going to the same church for over 2 years now and havent formed any deep relationships. it seems like we don’t fit into any of the “cliques”
and Rick,
Amen, Brotha, Amen
By: Aaron G on January 22, 2008
at 7:39 pm
Hey Jonathan & others
I wrote that 7-8 years ago after we left the IC. It was part of my detox process. I mean no ill will with anyone still involved in the IC. I like all expressions of Life.
I think it’s a helpful review for folks still involved whether you agree with any of my observations or not. They come from my 30+ years of involvement, much of which was in core leadership (whatever that means
)
Life | Love | Freedom
Rick
and Aaron…near Fort Wayne, IN are ya?
By: rick on January 22, 2008
at 8:45 pm
Glen:
You have asked loaded questions. As a minister, who has had ministry in 5 states and with 5 different deominations … my head spins when I look at these.
What is your gut level, deadly honest response to your church experience?
Ho-Hum in most cases even though I have been in some churches that had put on a good (very great at times) Sunday morning expeirences.
What impressions do you take away from it?
Most of them are not highly positive. One was extremely positive and I miss that church and the individuals greatly. I am actually “rehashing” soe of it through my series on my blog as I work through the connecting church )again)
How has it affected you?
In my current church, it has effected me by kicking me in the butt and getting me out into the community (town) and working with those who are hurting, those who are down and out doing things that make an impact in other peoples lives.
Glen & Everyone:
I am in a conflict over in a blog post and commenting session. Can someone come over and help me
I am getting slammed:
http://time2changechurches.blogspot.com/2008/01/will-you-fight-for-jesus.html
Sorry for the call out for help. Of course, maybe you will think that I am an idiot there as well
By: Jeff Greathouse on January 22, 2008
at 10:27 pm
Jonathan ~ Sounds like you all started a new church. You just haven’t made it formal yet. By the way, it sounds very cool! Thanks for your involvement in this conversation.
Jim ~ I wish the truth were not so painful. I think we will never get it “right” totally, but I keep asking myself, how we do it better or at lease not make the same stupid mistakes. I think there needs to be more of an opportunity for relationships to develop and to form some through serving together in demonstrating the Gospel to the non-initiated. Thank you for contributing to the conversation!
Aaron G. ~ That’s a common response to which most pastors would put it back on us and make us feel guilty. Maybe, what we are dealing with are the shortcomings of model of doing church. There has to be a better way!
Rick ~ That word picture was truly amazing and I think, accurate! That is an amazingly knock dead, spot on list! Thanks for jumping in!
Jeff ~ That’s not a bad effect! I don’t think you are an idiot anywhere. Honesty can mess with people’s minds when they don’t like it. Please keep it up! I’ll try to get over there to that site.
By: Glenn on January 22, 2008
at 11:25 pm
Rick, I hope you know I was ribbin you. You don’t know how many of those things I’ve said.
Glenn, I think the formal part is coming. It has just taken a while to admit it.
By: jonathanbrink on January 23, 2008
at 12:27 am
Glen:
I know that is not a bad effect. However, it is about the only place that has really effected me
By: Jeff Greathouse on January 23, 2008
at 7:35 am
Hey Jonathan,
I assumed is was a rib…but I know how sensitive this issue is for folks as well.
By: Rick on January 23, 2008
at 8:50 am
Glenn,
My pastor’s response was basically that we need to find a Sunday school class and form deep relationships there, and that during worship service people aren’t really wanting to go that deep, and that they don’t have the time because they need to get back to their seat.
Rick, I actually live in Bluffton and work up in Fort Wayne. Where do you live?
By: Aaron G on January 23, 2008
at 5:53 pm
sometimes crap, sometimes great, often about doing things for others and getting fed up, sometimes really lovin it. Life changing and life draining, life giving and life rediscovering… Keeps me connected when i’d rather drift away and helps me find a different reality from what everyother space in my life tells me how to live it…
By: Paul on January 29, 2008
at 12:47 pm
Paul ~ Anything involving humans is a mixed bag, it’s true. Yet, various relationship have different qualities. So, it is with church or most anything. You can a church tenure that is generally life-giving or life-draining. Your point about the different reality is something for which we need repeated reminders and a community.
By: Glenn on January 29, 2008
at 10:43 pm