Are You Sure?
Possible captions:
- You asked for it!
- I can’t take it anymore!
- Time for a something new.
- You know not what you ask.
- I am already present among you.
- If you sing that song one more time…
- But I wanted you to show the world more of me.
- So, you want some nifty warm and fuzzy feeling to affirm my reality?
- You mean that Jesus, the cross, the empty tomb, Scripture, the Holy Spirit, the prophets, apostles, and my revelation in nature and the in the heart of man, is not enough?
Have a favorite or one to add?
P.S. I am glad that this is not reflective of the way that God deals with us.
May 17, 2008 at 8:29 am
cute.
off topic- I have a question. I don’t recall how I found your blog- but sometimes I feel like I am on the outside looking in…….a conversation that everyone else is in that I don’t get.
I am out of touch with any new movements- I’ve separated from most things “christian”. so that may be part of it.
But the “emerging church” I am seeing on other blogs as well.
What I think I see is that a book was written about everyone leaving the traditional church…is that what is being coined the emergent church?
Then I see that you posted a coffee house thing that it looks like you opened a type of ministry.
is that the case?
Are others posting with you part of a group of people that left a church with you?
I am just trying to understand….forgive my confusion.
Is your new ministry going well?
When we first left our church, we entered another church because we believed that we couldn’t be without fellowship.
That church was horrid; we watched a split on a sunday morning that was more dysfunctional than anything you see on jerry springer.
So we are “out” of church now for 4 years. I miss some things but not really. We love Jesus- well, we think that is who we love.
I am rambling. I guess my point is; who are you, where are you going? and what is the coffee shop place about? How do you fit in to this emergent thing…….and what is that about?
Is there a place for what we want to do with the ministries that are leaving the churches to serve Jesus?
See, one thing that I KNOW FOR CERTAIN. We prayed. We sought God. We came to only one truth about where we are supposed to worship. In Songs of Songs when the bride is looking for her beloved- there is a scripture that descibes where his tent is- and with the flock of sheep near it. We felt that we would know the place for us to worship (tent/church building) by the sheep of the flock- that we would know HIS people by the fruit that they bear. Because many will come in HIS NAME and He will know them NOT….
the fruit?
For us, Isaiah 58. feed the hungary, clothe the naked, loosen the chains of the oppressed…..
and of course the well known fruit from the new testament.
Very different than competing for big numbers, big buildings, big tv shows, big ministries…while the widows are left crying lone, the children are left hungary, and the (mentally ill) for example are left alone in filthy ragged clothes homeless.
SO if you guys are about these things- I am interested in getting to know you more….
that’s what I am trying to say.
May 17, 2008 at 10:21 am
Caption: “Oops. Was that your building? My bad.”
May 17, 2008 at 10:25 am
“So, you want a revelation about the future of YOUR church”
May 17, 2008 at 11:33 am
Still confused about the purpose of this post?
May 17, 2008 at 9:26 pm
Jeromy & Mike ~ Thanks for joining in.
May 18, 2008 at 11:18 am
Everything ~
The purpose of the post is twofold. It is an obviously cynical way of saying that there is likely a stark contrast in the way we generally regard our local church and the way that God may regard it. There is a growing conviction that the church in general has become pretty self serving. It’s a generality. There are some wonderful exceptions. The second commentary in the post is that the corporate worship services in many churches lean heavily upon generating an emotional response. People are asking God to reveal himself in a personal way and desire a warm inner feeling. Yet, God has gone to great lengths to reveal himself to us and his role for us to reveal Him to others. I hope this helps.
May 18, 2008 at 3:45 pm
Jane –
That’s a lot to work on, but I will give it a try.
The Emerging Church is a catch all phrase for most anyway of being the church that is experimental and includes a wide spectrum of theology and methodology. Here is a great article that will give you an overview.http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2007/february/11.35.html
The only book that I can think of that was very influential when it came out a few years ago that started a lot of people on their journey to find a better way to follow Christ is A New Kind of Christian by Brian McLaren. It is a novel that tracts a pastor’s struggles with his beliefs and his church. It was a very unsettling book for me, but it started me on the journey of doing the same kind of re-evaluation as the pastor in the story.
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2007/february/11.35.html
Emergent refers to Emergent Village which is an organization that promotes a re-reexamining of theology and ecclesiology. Some writers like McLaren, Doug Pagitt, and Tony Jones are a part of the group or conversation, as they refer to it. Here I a link to the “about” page on their site.
http://www.emergentvillage.com/about/
The coffeehouse thing is a cohort or discussion group loosely affiliated with Emergent Village. Here is a yotube video about cohorts.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KhYVddnYu9I&eurl=http://www.emergingconversation.com/sewi/
Others who post here and who are on my blogroll are all over the place concerning their church involvement. Several have opted out of the institutional church and some are deeply involved in the institutional church. There has been nobody, except for one friend that was a part of a church with me who has left. Nobody who posts here was ever a part of a church that I pastored.
My new ministry has not yet launched, but it is getting closer. After consulting with a large number of people, I am down to waiting on some legal advice and getting the web site developed.
I have been out of the pastorate for seven years and had one whole year that we did not participate in any local church.
There is place for people that have a ministry on their heart that does not fit into the institutional church system that is one of the main reasons that I am beginning a new ministry… to try to be supportive to such people.
Jane, I am very much about real and about trying to love people as Jesus. I have a great love for his church, but have pretty much lost confidence in the institutional church. I want to be a part of being a beautiful display of the Gospel in very practical ways.
I hope this helps.
May 18, 2008 at 11:18 pm
it does.
thankyou for taking the time to answer-
now
im off to read those sites-
May 18, 2008 at 11:22 pm
p.s.-
I saw the cartoon as real-
i asked of God for more of Him- and he stepped on and crunched my worship of church- and everything that comes with it.
the church is to me- a way of living that is an idol that gets in the way of your reltionship with God.
it’s a good illustration of a TRUTH.
May 19, 2008 at 9:07 am
I may be way off based, and am not reading this the right way, but I have to say that this post was a little disappointing to me Glenn.
Even with all of the legitimate issues that exist there, I will forever be thankful for the church being there when I was ready to change my life and follow hard after Jesus. It was there that I was embraced, and loved, and loved some more. Absolutely yes there are issues, but I think you’re illustration is quite condescending and degrading towards the many people working very hard.
I think there should be a cartoon that has 3 panels. The left panel of your cartoon above. One in the middle that has a picture of a coffee shop with a caption above stating “Isn’t the local church so self serving! I can’t take it anymore!!!”. And then a third panel that has both buildings embraced in the arms of the One who LOVES them both.
May 19, 2008 at 9:46 am
Jane ~ That is very profound (and very controversial). I happen to see a lot of truth in your statement. If it were not true why would those in the church system be so defensive and why would those who choose to opt out have to detox from church activity, but yet enjoy a revitalized relationship with Christ?
May 19, 2008 at 10:21 am
James ~
You stirred up a long comment here, buddy! I hope it leads to some more good discussion.
The purpose of the post was to make a commentary about what may be the contrast between our perception of church and God’s and also offer a comment about how our focus in worship is getting a little off track. I think that a person could embrace what I just said here (and in my comment to “Everything” ) and also agree with what you wrote. What do you think?
I too will be forever thankful for some wonderful people that I have met within the institutional church and for some of the wonderful experiences that I have had there. After all, i have been a pastor for over 20 years and was as much of a proponent of the institutional church as you, probably, even more so.
So, my goal is not to be condescending, but to provoke people to think and re-examine what it means to be the church today when 25% of Christians have turned away from institutional expressions of the church and are expressing their faith in different ways. Just as your sensitivity is for those who are working very hard within the church system, my heart is with the millions who used to be a part of that system or perhaps, have always felt disenfranchised by it. I think it is big mistake to equate God’s working with only what is going on in the I.C. The church is also much bigger than the I.C.
As for your third panel suggestion, I think you are right. The people who are re-thinking church and all of that, will make a lot of mistakes and sometimes they are as self serving as what they turned away from. However, I don’t think that is reason for us to give up and say, well, this is as good as it gets. I think we have to try to figure out relevant and authentic ways to be the community of Christ on mission with him. and that will look lots of different ways.
Also, I believe if anything on earth should be open for discussion, debate , and critic, it is how to be the church. I shutter at the thought of our expressions of church being regarded as sacrosanct. All we have to do is look at history to see where that leads.
May 19, 2008 at 1:09 pm
I certainly am not equating God’s working with only what is going on in the I.C. I don’t believe that for a second.
Isn’t there a way to provoke people to think and re-examine what it means to be the church today, without being so negative or damning though? That’s how this kind of stuff comes across to me. I like to listen to Rob Bell. I don’t really hear him ripping others. Or how about Doug Pagitt? Both in my opinion, extremely provocative.
I like your ideas as well, and hold you in high regards. I know that I am guilty of this as well, but I just don’t like to see anyone chastising others. I don’t see it as being very Christlike at all.
May 19, 2008 at 2:35 pm
James ~
I pushed it about far as I could with this post. granted. Yet, it seems like yours is a knee jerk reaction and defensive. I could see you saying , Glenn, you make a point about the church being somewhat self serving and we should be concerned about about the people that feel disenfranchised, but this graphic is just needlessly offensive. In other words, own what is “yours” to own, even though you feel I overstated the case, I tried to that in the previous comment.
Also, I would like to see a more sensitivity toward people who are disenfranchised and have actually been abused in their service in the church. (I don’t have any personal or local situation in mind here.) This is NOT a personal commentary. It is a very general commentary about the IC. I am not chastening others! Scripture says that judgment begins with the house of God. By the way, I have heard and read Rob Bell making very negative comments about the state of the church.
It seems like you are implying that we shouldn’t criticize the church because there are sincere, hard working people involved. I don’t deny the sincere, hard working part for a minute, but I don’t follow the line of reasoning. I would think there would be more of a desire to make corrections and do better, rather than devoting so much energy to refuting criticism.
May 19, 2008 at 2:57 pm
Yeah. I’d say that it was a knee jerk reaction. I should have just wrote that this rubbed me the wrong way or that you make a point about the church being somewhat self serving and we should be concerned about about the people that feel disenfranchised, but this graphic is just needlessly offensive.
May 19, 2008 at 3:01 pm
James ~ For real or cynical?
May 19, 2008 at 3:22 pm
After I read your reply, I did realize that I wasn’t nearly as upset about it as I made it out to be. Your thought on what you could see me say, I totally agreed with, and pretty much was what I was trying to say. So it’s for real bro!
Love you, love your blog!!
~JB
May 19, 2008 at 5:33 pm
James ~ Kiss, kiss! Hug, hug! O.K, just the hug! Let’s split another sandwich soon. There are some limitations to written communication. Some of it needs to be eyeball to eyeball and involve sandwiches and beverages.